Pacey and Joey wake up after a night of passionate love making only to find they have missed the bus back to Capeside. After purchasing new tickets home on a different bus, Pacey brings up the events of the previous night and what Joey thought of things to which she replies that it was nice. This offends Pacey who was hoping for more of a glowing review and the two start to argue before Joey says she feels insecure about how she measured up, considering Pacey’s past with women and his two very meaningful sexual relationships. Pacey tells Joey that she was amazing, but then points out that ever since they did the deed, she hasn’t really touched him, something that is out of the ordinary for them, and he wonders what Joey will say if people ask them if they had sex, most notably Dawson. She responds that she would tell him the truth but she really doesn’t want to just broadcast their sex lives for all to hear about, and also reassures Pacey that when she says everything was nice, she means that he made her feel safe and is anxious to get back home so they can do it all again.
Gretchen and Dawson return to Mr. Brooks’ place to find Grams going through his souvenirs in his garage and she suggests that Dawson may want something from the collection to remember the late filmmaker with. Dawson rushes out of the garage, feeling overwhelmed and confused, as Grams follows him, suggesting that spending time with Brooks’ things may help him deal with the death and help him say goodbye. He goes back inside and together he and Gretchen begin reading a play Brooks wrote and enjoying themselves, before Dawson says he is scared because as much as Dawson seems to be similar to Brooks, the man gave up caring at one point and worries it will happen to him as well. Gretchen assures him that it won’t and tells him what made her really fall for him. She reminds him that when he thinks of Brooks to not remember the grumpy recluse, but the man with a big heart who actually did care for him when a man shows up and asks Dawson to see him in town later that day to discuss Brooks’ will.
Elsewhere Jen attends therapy with a man named Tom, part of her punishment due to her actions on the ski trip. She tries to act flippant, giving some details about recent events, and even takes some jabs at the therapist. He decides that given her resistance to actually trying therapy, he will just sign off on her participation so she doesn’t actually need to do anything else, but she shows signs that she actually does want to work on things, and asks him if she is just hopelessly screwed up. Tom answers that it’s too early to tell but gives her a pretty spot on reading, and she decides to stay and actually give it an honest try.
Joey runs into Dawson at the old movie theater and the two chat before deciding to just go hang out and talk like the old days. Dawson reveals that Brooks had left him a great deal of money, enough to pay for his college tuition. Joey laments not being there for him during these rough last couple of days but Dawson is understanding. Inevitably however, Dawson asks the dreaded question about whether Joey and Pacey slept together, something which he really doesn’t have a right to ask about as it isn’t really his business at all, and despite Joey promising to Pacey that she would tell him the truth, she lies, right to his face, thereby setting up the inevitable drama later on when Pacey finds out and feels yet again inferior to Dawson as well as when Dawson himself finds out and all hell breaks loose, showing that Joey has learned nothing since the debacle where she and Pacey hid their relationship from Dawson originally and almost lost their friendship completely. But maybe this time will be different?
There was a lot of negativity around this week. Several new commenters (arovo) and some old ones (Daniel P Bauer) hating on the episodes and being very non-fan like in 2001 which is unfortunately not much better in 2021. Threads dedicated to insulting Joey and Pacey, hating Dawson’s hairline, piling on about the writing, people think they know the actual concept of the show (to be Dawson and Joey together)… all in a very non constructive way and super insulting. I have not posted those comments here and tried to focus on the more positive threads.
Snoshie921 says: I can't believe Joey lied to Dawson. I mean, I know she doesn't wanna hurt him but that was just horrible on her part. What made it even worse is that Dawson was relieved when she told him that nothing happened. Poor Dawson... :( If he only knew...
Frank Mojica responds: If she didn't want to hurt him then she shouldn't have done anything wrong.
iceBlast says: She didn't do anything wrong. She slept with a guy she cares a great deal
for. Now, if she only did it to please Pacey, then she's a bitch. Hell, she's a bitch anyways for lying to Pacey, and Dawson.
Ryan3178 says: Well, lets hope Dawson and Gretchen end up in the same situation in two weeks.
PJ Browning says: so she tells Dawson that they did it and of course he'll be happy for Her. and she'd be two faced for telling Pacey that she's not going to go around and tell everyone that they screwed.
Flkofcguls says: Were you not paying attention? She made a point of telling Pacey in the beginning that if Dawsons asked her, she would tell him the truth.
Prodigy says: Gretchen will find out and automatically assume that Joey already told Dawson and let it slip. It would end up leading to an argument that will result with Dawson telling Joey he doesn't care about her anymore and that it wouldn't have affected him if she told him the truth. She says, how is she supposed to know. Then Joey gets jealous when his attention is on someone other than her. arova stupid lying *&@% you're not supposed to lie to people you haven't slept with
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PaceyH…@home.com says: Boycott Dawsons Creek - Breakup P/J NOW!!!! I have loved this show from the very beginning. But frankly, the Pacey Joey relationship is making me sick. Every ******* episode it has been in a cycle: whine, whine, makeup, whine, whine, makeup, etc. Now the producers let them have sex, this is the last straw. The whole concept of the show is out of whack, now it has truely become some sort of pointless soap opera with thoughtless characters. The sooner P/J breakup the better, and this show can get back on track.
Prodigy responds: I take it you're a P/J fan. LOL Personally, I don't care if Pacey and Joey are a couple. It keeps her off of Dawson's back. Which is what he wanted to begin with.
Chris Webb replies: Well, he does kind of have a point, and I can see it. I am a huge Joey fan
;-), and I like the Pacey/Joey relationship, but it is getting quite sad. I certainly wouldn't call it a healthy relationship. They fight and fight, and then make up, and then fight some more, and make up again. That doesn't seem typical of Joey. And the whole sex thing...really, that did end up getting pretty lame. I don't understand how Joey can go from supremely pissed off at Pacey on minute to "I want to go home now, (so we can do it again)" kind of forgiveness. Seems like there are some drama queens doing some writing in the background. I love DC, but I'm not sure I'm that happy with the direction the show is currently going, and I don't see how they can rectify it. I just hope they don't drag it out to where it isn't watchable anymore.
PJ Browning says: no, but if you think about it, how many teenagers have what one would call 'a healthy relationship' more go in the do not column than the dos
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Thank goodness for Mal P: Hi everyone! After reading the bile that was spewed forth towards this episode of Dawsons Creek, I watched it today expecting it to be the Devil incarnate of
Television... I even got into the spirit on AIM and joked about how mediocre the show had become etc etc. Thus, it was a surprise to me that after viewing, it was actually quite good! No that's not right... it was great! It was easily the best episode since "Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang" and I thoroughly enjoyed every moment of it. Now, before we get started, I'd like to take time in congratulating the producers of the show for finally coming up with some new, long overdue
credits. It was rather pleasant to see moments of old mixed with the new, and I certainly felt that they reflected the show more than the old credits did. I saw no sinister indication of foreshadowing as had been pointed out by others, because let's face it, whatever foreshadowing the show comes up with - it's purely by accident :) The style in which this episode was contructed was quite refreshing. While not executed as flawlessly as "The Longest Day", it certainly makes it a lot easier to type my comments!
About Last Night
The first thing I noticed was that the various assortments of frilly lingerie seen on the ground during the initial pan to where Pacey and Joey are sleeping on the bed, did not actually reflect that which was worn by Joey last week! If you remember, all she had on was a top without any other supporting elements. But I digress rather extremely. Ahem. It was easy to see the confused emotions playing on Joey's waking up to the day and seeing Pacey there - setting the tone for her character for the entire episode. In many ways she seems happy and content - but also a little sad and introverted as she realised the significant step she has taken in her life.
The rather lame practical joke Drue played on Pacey and Joey was but a catalyst to see the "morning after" effects on their relationship. I would also like to highlight the sheer incompetence of their teacher, who not only didn't check that Pacey and Joey were actually on the bus, but
seemed to forget that they didn't actually get on it in the first place. Pacey and Joey appeared jovial and certainly light hearted considering the ramifications of the night before in their lives, and indeed, as Paul Stupin said, everyone in Capesides. Perhaps signs of chinks in the armour... oh goody, some drama at last! It's rather ironic isn't it, that just when Pacey and Joey start to get interesting again, their relationship begins to dissolve. Perhaps that is the eptimoy of interesting television - conflict. The bantering between the duo, despite the problems it represented, was quite entertaining to witness. To tell you the truth, I can't actually remember a time when these two were as fun as they were in that scene! Sometimes I really miss how romance ruined a lot of their more positive aspects - like it did with Dawson and Joey. Bah, love, who needs it! <g>
Perhaps there is an explanation for the way Pacey seemed a little… arrogant with his remarks to Joey regarding Neil Armstrong etc, with the whole "macho" thing going on. While it was all said I believe in the moment, in fun, you have to remember that he is a guy who has hid behind his joking exterior for a long time, to hide the scared and hurt little boy inside. It seemed as though Pacey over the years, has been someone who absorbed hurt, rather than let it bounce off him like Dawson. Instead, we saw his character becoming dark, brooding and intense. We were seeing a young man trying to grow into manhood - struggling to find his own niche. In my opinion, I don't really think Joey has helped him with that, as she has constantly left him feeling very insecure due to the ambiguous way she constructs her feelings towards him, especially when reflected off the ever-present ghost of Dawson.
In "Self-Reliance" we may have witnessed the actual start of Pacey's "journey". He seems to be dealing with the fact that Dawson does play an important part in Joey's life, and he also seems to understand how complex Joey's emotions are sometimes (ok, most of the time) and was willing to work through them for the person he cares about. Would Pacey, if he was the same
person he was in "Coming Home" behaved that way, asking Joey to goto Dawson? I don't think so. Maybe we're not even seeing it... maybe Pacey is becoming a stronger man.
Alas, "Four Stories" demonstrated that perhaps his resolve isn't quite so strong yet, as he had obviously picked up on the aloof and mixed signals Joey was giving off, and scared that she may be regretting her decision to sleep with him and was disguising her true feelings with banter,
Pacey in turn replied with the only defense mechanism he has - humour. Some of his comments however, were a little exaggerated as it seemed that his jovialness was mixed with a great deal of trepidation. That was sort confirmed when he and Joey entered into another argument about
Dawson, i.e. what she would tell him if he asked. I'm actually trying to understand where Pacey was coming from, where he not only used the "Dawson card" but also, as some males tend to do, felt insecure about how he performed.
I do believe it comes back to "A Winters Tale" where Joey never explained to him why she was so scared about losing her virginity. Pacey said that it was because of Dawson - that Joey had for so long expected Dawson to "deflower her" (her words!) the idea of it not being him, terrified her. I think that was proven in that episode itself when she made that phone call and had "release" one might say. Thus, Pacey is suspecting something along those lines are going on... he's a lot sharper than we give him credit for.
Now when Joey stormed outside crying, and explained to Pacey why she was glad she had sex with him - I couldn't shake the feeling that she was telling him what he wanted to hear. I don't doubt that she loves Pacey - but perhaps a part of her, the part that still loves Dawson, is regretting the fact that it wasn't him. We'll see what happens!
The Big Picture
Last week, we were wondering why Dawson seemed so detached from the demise of Mr. Brooks, and I do believe that this episode gives us a better indication of where he was coming from. Each of us react differently to different situations, and I felt that Dawson, last week, wanted to be strong, handle himself in a way that was befitting of an adult. But in "Four
Stories", we saw his heart come out, we saw his sadness, and we saw his anger.
Grams surprises me, and to tell you the truth, the way her character was portrayed seemed a little... off. As if she was all knowing, all preaching. But it's Grams, so gotta love her! <g> Her wanting to comfort Dawson once he stumbled outside was endearing, and I appreciated the fact that she provides Dawson with answers, not more questions. Her words to him about closure,
echoes through the hallowed streets of Capeside like a siren - it parallels the situation between Dawson and Joey perfectly. "I don't know". Gretchen is the most wonderful, caring and compassionate guest character to grace this show. The love that is building up between Dawson and her is scintillating to watch, and again I must congratulate the producers on
selecting Sasha Alexander for the role - perfect casting. The amount of concern and honesty she gave Dawson as he tried to come to grips with all that has happened is endearing. I fully understand Dawsons insecurities about himself, and whether he'd end up like Brooks - wasting his life. After all, the parallels are insurmountable. What was so true were the words Gretchen told him - how Dawson hadn't given up. How he had the strength of character to try and heal his broken heart, by going out there, re-cementing old friendships. And most of all, as Gretchen said, taking a chance with romance again, letting the ghost of Joey go.
I completely concur in that Brooks helped Dawson greatly in the sense he inspired him to go out there and take risks in your life, to never let yourself be beaten down by life's little ups and downs. The fact that Dawson seemed to have inherited a lot of Brook's estate makes for an interesting plot twist... the boat, the house, the money... I suspect something big happening in the future!
Excess Baggage
An amazing sequence of events is occuring on Dawsons Creek. Within the last two episodes, Jen has recieved more screen time than she has the entire season. Staggering eh? Suffice to say, I am quite delighted at the fact - especially the engaging and heartfelt storyline she was given in this episode.
First of all, let me re-iterate the fact that the supervisor on the Ski-Trip is an incompetent fool. To admit Jen, and Jen only to therapy while allowing the rest of the students to get away with stark murder? Honestly. Either way - it's an interesting twist to her storyline, and we find out a lot of
what we've all been suspecting about her.
The therapist that we were introduced to seemed at first extremely dry and vapid. Too clinical... but perhaps I didn't give him enough credit. He certainly knew which buttons to press and his analysis of her character was spot on. Jen, perhaps even more so than Joey, is in fear of abandonment. It has happened to her so many times in her life - her parents, boyfriends, even her own Grandmother. I can certainly understand why it would terrify her to open herself upto anyone again - especially after what happened with Henry, allowing him to enter her heart, despite the trepidation she felt. The reason she connects so well with Jack is that there is no threat there - he can't abandon her, and when in "You Had Me At Goodbye" he almost did, the
results were rather profound and heartbreaking. The entire "goof Jen" aspect is wonderful to see, and I have to say, Michelle Williams is an amazing, amazing actress - she nailed every line in those scenes. Well done! I hope to see more therapy sessions in the future.
Seems Like Old Times
Now to my favourite part of the episode! The scenes that were enacted in this act were absolutely electrifying, and I didn't realise until now how much I had missed seeing Dawson and Joey interact as they once did. The warmth exhibited in those precious scenes almost lit up my room. I loved the way they joked, and bantered and talked with such glee... as if they didn't
have a care in the world, and they were young again. Congratulations to the writers, actors and director for managing to recapture the magic. Joey's suggestion that they make another movie with the money Dawson has earnt seemed to indicate a yearning for times gone by... when things were so simply and the three of them, Dawson, Pacey and Joey could just enjoy an
afternoon having fun without so much complication. Damn... I feel a pang now.
The scene on the swings was sizzling. The tension between them as they talked about the events that occured previously on them... again wistful. I'm glad that these two will always have a piece of each others hearts, no matter what happens. Now, Dawson asking "that" question - uh-oh. I smell trouble in paradise. I'm not sure why he'd ask that question, as there was once a time where he didn't want to know. Perhaps it's a sign that he's moved on with his life? That he feels comfortable talking about it with Joey? Perhaps there's a little more to it... I do think that when there's something which you've been looking forward to all your life, especially with someone you love as much as Joey, it's hard to let go of the idea sometimes. Curiosity gets the
better of you and you need to know... but what surprised me was the fact he breathed a sigh of relief. Relief over what? It wasn't that it was any of his business right? As Joey said, it's an extremely personal question - but Dawson demonstrated that he knew it was and that he was out of line.
I'm not quite sure of what to think about Joey's blatant lie to Dawson. I've struggled for quite some time to come up with an explanation for her behaviour, and all I could come up with, always ended up back at the triangle. Ok, she just experienced perhaps a life altering event - she lost her virginity to her boyfriend, whom I have no doubt Joey loves dearly. Perhaps she's confused, perhaps she's feeling nervous - but perhaps she's regretting her decision? I don't know that one yet, but watching last weeks episode, the turnaround in her behaviour, from an entire hour of not being ready, to all of a sudden jumping the gun (so to speak) was a little sudden. But that's for future episodes to delineate.
What I do think is the cause of much anger amongst the fans of the show, is the *way* she lied to Dawson... it wasn't stammering or confused... it was confident, and with a believable smile on her face. That in itself is rather incredulous, and perhaps it was an oversight on behalf of the
producers/director/actor. Or perhaps, it was an indication of relief that Dawson had not slept with Gretchen yet, as the writer for this episode, Tom Kapinos, has hinted at. That particular angle my friends, is going to cause a hell of a lot of problems for everyone on the Creek, and I mean everyone. Thank God! :) I think I'm going to enjoy the contrived and silly storylines that are going to follow in the next few months... at least I won't be bored anymore.
Now, Joey must be extremely careful here, as she is playing with fire - the hearts of Dawson, Pacey and Gretchen. The damage that can be caused is impossible to explain in words, and the ramifications will be far more severe than that of the triangle that occured last year. If she is genuinely having doubts about her relationship with Pacey and is starting to realise she is really in love with Dawson, then she needs to put others before herself first. It is clear to me that Dawson is falling rapidly in love with Gretchen, as has been demonstrated in not just this episode, but many before. I don't think that he would be interested in Joey romantically at
this point, considering how much his own love life is blooming - but you never know, this is Dawsons Creek and Gretchen could end up with the short end of the stick. And what about Pacey - oooh! After all those reassurances by Joey of how much she loves him and not Dawson - having his worst fears come true could make for interesting drama, seeing how well Pacey holds up... whether he really has grown up and will not allow a broken heart to dictate his life like it has before. That is the true strength of character, to be able to pull yourself out of depression, out of melancholy and make the best out of a bad situation. Like what Dawson did.
NOTE: I think the entire notion of Joey being "secretly" in love with Dawson during all this time is absolutely bloody ridiculous, and as much as I want Dawson and Joey to one day reunite, this way, where hearts are shattered, where an entire season of romance between Pacey and Joey is disregarded... it's not right, and I hope many of you feel that way. If they were to stray down this path, everyone ending this season as friends would be the best solution, hence next season would be better suited for a D/J pairing as there has been a little too much history now. Then again, I've given up any notion of continuity on this show by now, so if the writers want to do it, go for it, at least we'll see some fantastic conflicts and some magical D/J moments, like tonight.
I'm not sure what reasoning Joey is going on, believing that because Dawson thinks she hasn't had sex yet, that he too will not. I consider that to be perhaps the biggest issue I have with what Joey did by lying. It's beyond obvious that she still hasn't realised how much Dawson has grown up, how much he has changed. I honestly thought that Joey, especially after Dawson gave her that picture of her and Pacey, realised how the naive, black and white boy she once knew, had turned into a graceful and powerful young man.
I swear, them writers... hand me a semi-automatic someone. If she honestly thinks Dawson has been awaiting all this time for her, indulging in just a "fling" with Gretchen for the hell of it, then she is sorely mistaken. Dawson would not do that, not to anyone, especially Gretchen. I have no
doubt that he will stay the course and remain firm in his resolve. Perhaps I'm reading too much into this - perhaps Joey just read Dawson like she can, that somehow she had misinterpreted his intentions, his trepidation to mean that he would be hurt beyond belief if he found out what happened.
Considering that Joey hadn't been there for him in his time of need, Joey may not have been able to bring herself to tell the truth, thinking it would destroy the fragile friendship they've started to rekindle. You know what, I'd like to think that... I always try and assume the best about these characters, so I'll believe that Joey's intentions were not malicious nor hypocritical - just misguided caring for an old friend. Little does she realise that her lie will cause far more hurt than if she had told the truth just then. Oh dear.
Overall, a thoroughly entertaining episode, crafter by the masterful Tom Kapinos. So, who's going to be watching the next new episode when it airs? *Mal raises hand* It looks like TPTB ploy did work... we're still watching eh? An 8 out of 10.
Coy A Hill says: i thought it was an excellent episode as well...every moment. jack and jen's bantering outside the bus was hillarious. Especially the comment about "mommy and daddy can only have sex if daddy is thinking about ryan phillipe". that's classic jack&jen. grams is great. she reminds me so much of my own grandmothers, one of whom coincidentally is also a nurse. i didn't see the all-preaching thing come through that much.
oh, god! i love gretchen, and sasha was one hell of a good casting choice. why can't we all have significant others like that! she's so beautiful and caring -- and it takes a lot for me to say someone is as beautiful as Katie -- she completely wowed me in this episode! she was right on in how she dealt with dawson. she knew the right thing to say, and the fact that she knew what he was thinking was so endearing. it was almost as beautiful as pacey sitting there by the fire, just watching joey sleep in "A Weekend in the Country".
arovo is our newest troll: well that explains it - you are obviously completely obsessed with the show in that you'll adore everything they show on it. haven't you ever wanted the show to go a certian way, or must you always view it with the view of writing a review that glorifies the show so you can post that everywhere and get everyone to go - ooh mal that's so nice? ive read your reviews for a long time now and i'm very sure of that - just look at your opening statements
Mal P responds properly: I'm sorry you feel that way. I admit it, I am far more of a fan of Dawsons Creek rather than a critic, and I generally like going along with whatever silly storylines they come up with. It's my guilty pleasure. I've given up on the notion that it's epic quality - I watch "The West Wing" for that.
arovo can’t even: cool Mal - i wish i could be like that but it kinda goes against my personality: there are times when i can just go "NO WAY! *LOL*" and turn off and go do something more productive. sometimes they cut the throat of a greater vehicle for drama by doing some stupid shortcut that defies how people with real charzcters act. but not to worry. havagoodweegend. :)
~La Angel says: You know, I miss the old Joey and Pacey a lot. The times when they would just knock on each other for the fun of it. I don't want to rip on their relationship now a great deal, but I think that they were so much more interesting when they didn't like each other. There was just so much more chemistry between them then than there is sexual chemistry between them now.
I'm not quite sure what you mean here, the person he was in "Coming Home"? I definitely do think that if the tables had been turned around in "True Love", Pacey would most definitely NOT have told Joey to go to Dawson. Pacey was/is a stubborn guy and very impatient (as we have all witnessed in the past few episodes). Dawson definitely showed a great deal of courage by
telling Joey to go, and I know people will rip me saying that he doesn't have the right to "set her free". Honestly, Pacey would never have been able to accept Joey leaving him for the guy she loves more. I don't doubt that Pacey loves Joey now, but I do believe that in "True Love" Dawson showed his love and his maturity to be stronger than Pacey's. I don't think Pacey is the type of guy who can love a person and let her go because he loves her so much and wants her to be happy.
I think Pacey really needs to let up on the Dawson thing. It is getting VERY VERY annoying and despite whatever insecurites he might have, every single time he uses it, he guilt trips Joey into doing something or saying something that will make him feel better. I don't doubt that Joey willfully slept with Pacey, but I do think that somewhere deep down, him claiming that Dawson was the reason of her hesitations gave her a little pang of guilt. If Pacey can't even let up on the Dawson idea for one of the most sacred moments in a relationship, it's always going to hang there and taunt him until the relationship ends. It will be his white elephant that is always
in the room no matter what he and Joey are doing.
Oh god no kidding. The one thing I noticed was that they kept looking at the ground and scuffing their feet. No doubt it was slightly uncomfortable considering the actions that had happened that last time they were there together. I love the Dawson and Joey dynamic and I loved that they were able to just talk again, although these few scenes made me think about late 20 somethings rather than late teenage years. Walk in the town, dinner, reminiscing, all that kind of stuff, the "catching up." I do wonder about that whole movie theater drop off as someone mentioned before. That was slightly odd.
I'm baffled by the reason for which Dawson might want to know a thing like that. Makes me think about how he acted in "Coming Home." Perhaps he just wanted to have that closure. After all, he did get the closure to that unasked question in Coming Home. The fact that he asked it this time shows some "moving on" in his life but since he did utter a LONG sigh of relief I'm sure he was expecting the worst. Of course he's already pictured it in his mind, but confirmation is a different story. I just feel bad for him when he learns the truth because he's already rebuilding that wall of trust in his mind. To have someone that close to you lie to your face so blatantly and about something so personal to both people is just going to crush him so much more than if she had just uttered a simple yes at that time.
I watched the old episode "The Breakfast Club" now retitled "Detention" from Season 1, most people will remember it as the first time Dawson and Joey kissed, and I found it so ironic that Joey was complaining about how everyone was obsessed with sex, even Dawson. I know some people are going to say that I need to move on from Dawson and Joey and get over them, but
the dynamic of the show is rooted in previous episodes. But I digress. Anyways, Joey complains about how everybody is obsessed with sex now, even Dawson that if Dawson is worried about how inexperienced he is, all he needs to do is look at her. And Dawson says that all she needs to do is find the right person. And I watched her struggle and in this shy quiet little voice
totally opposite of her personality she barely whispers that she already has.
I do not believe that Joey had any doubt in her mind that Dawson had not slept with Gretchen yet. She knows Dawson way to well. But there is a strong indication that she wasn't entirely confident with her decision to tell a lie. Dawson uttered a quick no as soon as the question was posed, with out that BS that Joey pulled out. I think that Joey had already decided on not telling Dawson the truth long before she and Pacey ever discussed it. When it comes to matters of the heart, some things are better left undisclosed. There's a reason for the saying "Ignorance is bliss."
I have a small inclination to assume that the writers will not give D/J hopefuls what they truly hoped for as a long rekindling of the old flame to finally realize that they love each other again. For some reason I believe that the final episode of the final season will show their true feelings but the only problem is that they may not let us see the romance again, but to just leave us with the fact that they are together again. I indeed hope that this is not the case, but it would be a very powerful yet subtle ending to the drama of Dawson's Creek.
I know that Dawson would not hurt anyone like that, but we must remember that he and Joey loved each other very deeply and they never ventured under the covers. Love does not need to be made in order to show it and Dawson and Joey know this more than anyone. Well, maybe just Dawson now. But we also know that Dawson has been presented with quite a few opportunites to stop waiting for Joey many times and he has never taken them. It could be
said that he is indeed waiting for her. I also don't think that Joey believes that she not having sex will translate into Dawson not having sex. That's a little too naive even for Dawson's Creek. I think that rooted in her subconcious was this inkling that Dawson would be devastated. When he gave that sigh of relief, you could see the relief and guilt infecting her. She knew she had done the wrong thing by lying, but she also knew that by letting Dawson believe that she hadn't slept with Pacey yet set her free from some of the pressures of the question. Had she told the truth and admitted she slept with Pacey, yes, in the long run it would not have made a bit of difference, but at this time, Dawson is unprepared for it. That sigh of relief was her indication that at this moment in time, she had done the right thing by keeping the secret safe just a little longer.
Prodigy on someone saying Joey may still want Dawson: Why? She's 'damaged goods' now. LOL While it would be a special moment for Dawson, for Joey it would be a 'been there, done that' thing. Where's the 'special-ness'? Plus, you have to realise that she'll be comparing Pacey and Dawson during the sex. I know that she probably wouldn't want to do it, but that won't stop her from comparing. Dawson is way better off without her.
Mal P responds to LaAngel: > Honestly, Pacey would never have been able to accept Joey leaving him for the guy she loves more.
I disagree with that. If you look at the end of season 3, he was quite
willing to let Joey go... he even admitted to Dawson that Dawson had won,
and was about to walk away from everything knowing he had lost the girl. No
fuss, no ultimatums - just a clean break, doing what made Joey happy. You
gotta give him credit for that.
> I do believe that in "True Love" Dawson showed his love and his maturity to be stronger than Pacey's.
You can't really compare the two... both are very different people, and have
very different approaches to love. In many ways Dawson is stronger, and in
others Pacey is. In the end, they both care about the people they love
deeply, and would do anything to make sure they were happy.
> I don't think Pacey is the type of guy who can love a person and let her go because he loves her so much and wants her to be happy.
But he did. He let Andie go to the hospital at the end of season 2 despite
knowing it could mean the end of their relationship... he let Joey go at the
end of season 3, thinking that she would be happier with Dawson.
> I think Pacey really needs to let up on the Dawson thing. It is getting VERY VERY annoying and despite whatever insecurites he might have, every single time he uses it, he guilt trips Joey into doing something or saying something that will make him feel better.
Pacey does introduce Dawson way too much into their discussions, but having watched "Four Stories" and the previous episodes, can you really blame him? Joey is giving off some very different signals there...
> I know some people are going to say that I need to move on from Dawson and Joey and get over them, but the dynamic of the show is rooted in previous episodes.
I would never say that. We all have our hopes ;-) (Mine is that everyone ends up being friends agai, good friends - alas, it looks like a futile cause with the ressurection of the triangle). As to the dynamic, Dawson and Joey are a fundamental part of the show, the story of two soulmates growing up... but I don't think it's the dynamic of the show overall. I'd like to think that the overall theme of friendship and growing up - how those friendships are tested as they grow up etc.
> I think that Joey had already decided on not telling Dawson the truth long before she and Pacey ever discussed it. When it comes to matters of the heart, some things are better left undisclosed. There's a reason for the saying "Ignorance is bliss."
I'm not sure... I think that she fully well wanted to tell Dawson if he asked and she was being honest to Pacey when she said she would... but in the moment, when she saw the anticipation and trepidation on Dawsons face… she folded, misguidedly thinking the truth would hurt him. Alas, the reprecussions of the lie will be far more harmful than the truth straight
off.
> I also don't think that Joey believes that she not having sex will translate into Dawson not having sex. That's a little too naive even for Dawson's Creek.
It would be... it's a ridiculous storyline, but Tom Kapinos, in an interview with the WB, said that she lied because she didn't want Dawson to have sexwith Gretchen.
SLYN11 replies: >> Dawson definitely showed a great deal of courage by telling Joey to go, and I know people will rip me saying that he doesn't have the right to "set her free".
I want to rip into both of you. I don't think a 3 month romantic relationship that ended almost a year ago is enough to stand in the way of moving on. Dawson had no right to set her free because Joey had already moved on to a great extent (remember AJ? and Jack before that?) A true friend should encourage Joey to follow her heart. I liked to seeing Dawson and Joey spending time together...they had/have a great friendship. I wasn't picking up on any romantic/sexual chemistry between them, but I did sense that they both missed just hanging out together.
>I know some people are going to say that I need to move on from Dawson and Joey and get over them, but the dynamic of the show is rooted in previous episodes.
I don't believe there is anything for you to get over. Dawson and Joey make a terrible romantic couple, that is why they did not last. It is just this idea of Dawson and Joey, that the writers have pushed on us is what makes some long for a reunion. Dawson and Joey make better friends than lovers. Those are the roots the show needs to return to.
>The secon most amazing and captivating scene from season 1 that... the tension, the sparks... oh my goodness,
I think we were watching different shows, because the best thing about season 1
was Pacey and Miss Jacobs. You gotta admit the boy was bold.
>> Dawson uttered a quick no as soon as the question was posed, with out that BS that Joey pulled out.
I think he was quick to answer because he wanted Joey to know that he has not
completely given his heart to someone else. I still believe that he is holding
out hope that he and Joey will get back together, even if it is subconsciously.
>I'm not sure... I think that she fully well wanted to tell Dawson if he asked and she was being honest to Pacey when she said she would... but in the moment, when she saw the anticipation and trepidation on Dawsons face… she folded, misguidedly thinking the truth would hurt him.
I think the truth would hurt him, and thus the sigh of relief. I think Joey should have just stated that she does not want to dicuss her private life with Pacey and left it at that. They are not as close as they used to be, and so I don't think she would readily share this milestone with Dawson.
TPTB would have to do some major plot development before I would be convinced of a Dawson and Joey relationship. I just don't think that the intensity is there to make it work. As I said before, the whole D and J soulmate thing is contrived. The only real relationship we have seen develop is between Pacey and Joey. (Season 3 was a magical study of falling in love. My mother even got hooked on that storyline.) Pacey and Andie nor Henry and Jen can compare.
Prodigy referring to the interview: You know what I predict will happen out of all this? Dawson and Pacey will probably become friends and both will cut Joey out of their lives when they
find out about her mind games. So, it's alright for her to lose her virginity to someone other than Dawson, but it's not okay for Dawson to do the same? What a pig! Gretchen is WAY, WAY, WAY better than Joey. If Dawson is smart and I hope that he is, he chooses Gretchen for good. And the both of them leave Joey in the dust.
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Katie Holmes hosting SNL Katie Holmes: February 24, 2001 S26 E13
https://archive.org/details/saturday-night-live-s-26-e-13-katie-holmes-dave-matthews-band
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Javier Sanchez says: I've heard that Dawson and Gretchen do NOT have sex and that they
break up before the end of this season. What have you guys heard?
Snoshie921 says: I'm not sure if they have sex, but they do break up in episode 420. Sasha
Alexander, who plays Gretchen said that the writers are leaning in the direction of the two of them sleeping together. But, who knows. If you wanna hear some really good spoilers, go to http://www.fanforum.com, scroll to the bottom and under "Fan Extras", click on Spoilers. But let me warn you, there are MAJOR spoilers on this board. :)
The rest of the comments removed because they started flaming people for fanfiction.net
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Buppie says: What business is it of Gretchen whether or not Joey told Dawson that her and
Pacey had sex? It is none of her business. If Joey didn't want to tell him for ANY reason, she doesn't have to. It is a private issue. Pacey wants the word out to show up Dawson somehow and that too is wrong. No one should be upset that she kept quiet. If she had told Dawson, people would say she was deliberately trying to hurt him and gloat. And the fact that Gretchen was so mad about it. What was up with that? But that was my big deal about last night's episode.
IceBlast responds: What do you mean it is none of her business? She found out that Joey not
only lied to (gretchens) boyfriend, but she is lying to her brother too. I'd be the first to tell both Pacey and Dawson about it.
SuperD says: The issue was that bf and gf should not keep secrets from each other. G knew
something and couldn't tell D. J also didn't tell P the truth. And Pacey doesn't seem to have any hidden motive. It's J that is trying to keep the D thing going. D will be very mad at G when he finally learns about the P/J thing because G didn't tell him sooner. G doesn't deserve to have D get mad at her when it's J's fault to begin with.
Buppie says: This is about SEX, not who kissed who. I did not blurt it out to everyone or tell my ex when it happened. Give me a break. So Gretchen knows, she is a sister first and if Dawson doesn't like the fact that she didn't tell him the intimate secrets of her brother, then she was right, he is too young. Of course the way she was acting this past episode, she is just his age
mentally.
IceBlast replies to Buppie: >Of course the way she was acting this past episode, she is just his age mentally. How do you figure? I did not blurt it out to everyone or tell my ex when it happened.
Well, did he ask you straight out? If so, would you LIE to him? It's not like we are saying Joey should have gone right to Dawson and told him, but when asked, she should either have said, "Whether we did, or not, is my personal buisness Dawson," or she should just have told him the truth.
>So Gretchen knows, she is a sister first and if Dawson doesn't like the fact that she didn't tell him the intimate secrets of her brother, then she was right, he is too young.
O.K. Now lets see. You're in an exclusive relationship with someone. That person, knows that your supposed friend has lied to you. You don't think that they should let you know? And if they didn't tell you that you were being lied to, and you later found out that they knew the whole time, you wouldn't be upset?
Buppie argues: She was just being whiney and acting very childish about the whole thing.
She is supposed to be what 22 or 23? She was not acting her age.
Now you do have a point about what should have been said "Whether we did, or not, is my personal buisness Dawson," but it is still HER business. Like Dawson said he shouldn't have asked, it was none of his business.
> And if they didn't tell you that you were being lied to, and you later found out that they knew the whole time, you wouldn't be upset?
Not if the person is your sibling. And they haven't even been, dare I say dating, long enough to have an exclusive relationship. They have problems if they laugh and get nervous when talking about sex. (That would be directed at Dawson). But it is also just a tv show, so things happen that are not true to life a lot of the time (like how people react, say or do).
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Mal P reviews: Hi everyone, You've all heard this from me before, and I'm sure you're all sick of it :) But I have to say, what an excellent episode! I absolutely adored every single moment of this one, it had something that had been missing for a long time now... tension. To paraphrase, you could cut through it with a knife. I felt my heart thudding as the reprecussions of the lie were flung from left to right.
The first thing I noticed in this episode was that it had an air of… desolateness? The scenery, the imagery, even the mood, it seemed to imply a "shadow" being cast over everyone. Wonderfully directed. The second was that it was well paced, I didn't feel it drag or leave me looking around the room in boredom (a rare occasion!). The dialog was fairly sharp and each and every single one of the actors nailed their scenes perfectly. This episode had a recurring theme throughout it... a concept that hasn't happened since #411 "Self-Reliance". While that episode was about being able to rely on others for support, "Mind Games" was about honesty - it's virtues and how a lack of it can permanently fracture relationships, for good.
Let's start with the most obvious example of honesty, or a lack thereof in this episode - Joey. She has always been a confused girl, not sure of what she wants, not sure of her needs. I had honestly thought that as season 4 had progressed, she was growing up, turning into a young woman who was not only happy, but was sure about herself. It seems I was alas wrong. No matter what Joey does, or how much she inadvertantly hurts people, there is one thing that stops me from disliking her to the point of hatred - and that is intent. Does she intend to maim the people she most cares about? Does she want to spread lies in the hope of maliciously crushing everyones hearts? I don't think so, or at least wouldn't like to think so (no thanks
to Tom Kapinos stating in an interview that Joey lied to keep Dawson from sleeping with Gretchen - now that is intent to hurt and I would have a hard time forgiving Joey for that one).
To understand Joey better, let's have a look back at her character (this is extremely difficult considering the rabid inconsistency in the way the writers potray these people, but I'll try). Joey has gone through a lot in her short life - losing not just her mother to cancer, but her father to
such extrenuous circumstances at such a young age can cause no end of psychological issues. She has developed a hard outer shell, and pushes people away when she fears that they will end up hurting her. She's only really trusted one constant in her life - Dawson Leery. He has been there for her through thick and thin, and over the years, she grew to not only need him for emotional strength, but also depend on him for happiness. She fell in love with him.
Well certain events transpired and so a cycle of make-ups and break-ups occured with Dawson as a result of a romance. Joey realised she depended on Dawson too much and tried to "find herself". Failing that as she missed him too much, she reunited. In the end, all was supposedly well…
Now, if Joey's father was not released from prison and she had continued growing as an individual, I have no doubt that she would be a lot calmer and more trusting towards the people that love her. However, you have to realise the hurt Joey went through such a short time ago. Her life was falling back into place... her father was out of prison and the Potters were a family
again. She had a loving boyfriend in Dawson, and close friends in Jack… even Pacey. She was doing well in school and the future was looking spectacularly bright. Thus, she started to overcome her issues with anger and pain. She extended her trust towards people, for the first time in years.
But what happens? Not only does her father start dealing in drugs again, causing the destruction of the family business that they had all worked so hard for, but her boyfriend, the person that she loved forced her to turn in her own father to the police (rightly I might add, Dawson did the honourable, right thing and I admire him greatly for it) - destroying this fragile illusion of a family she had started to cling to once again. She lashes out in anger, and retreats into herself, afraid of trusting again. I'm not sure how much all the events of season 2 would hurt, but I can easily, easily understand how all that happening to her AGAIN, could cause Joey Potter to be extremely reluctant in trusting people, even loved ones. She's just been ripped apart too often, and a child can only take so much. Thus, she has developed a unique dependance on Dawson - one that had seemingly dissipated as she broke away from him when she fell in love with Pacey and chose to be with him. Alas, she never completed that journey of
finding herself, of making herself happy all that time ago and thus, we see her constantly needing reassurance from Dawson in order to maintain a semblance of a normal life.
Thus the lie - for a brief amount of time, she had recessed into her concsience that Dawson was no longer a factor in her romantic relationships, especially in the way she developed a relationship with Pacey. But a trigger - sex, caused her to realise that perhaps her feelings weren't so sure, that perhaps she really, despite all this time, doesn't know what she wants. She enters panick mode as pre-concieved notions dissipate, especially the one where she was supposed to lose her virginity to Dawon. Hence, in an attempt to cling onto one iota of the past, she pretends that nothing has changed. And so she lies.
Now delving into the actual episode *cough*... :) Note that all of this is assuming the notion that Joey had been secretly in love with Dawson all this time... a notion I consider to be very silly. But, the writers of this show seem to want to go in this direction and so I call em as I seem em. I was interested to see that Pacey and Joey appeared to be fairly at ease about the sex, bantering about it here and there. A sign that perhaps things weren't as stormy as they could be? Shoot that idea to pieces as Drue's little ploy striked deep. He certainly has a unique ability of playing with our gang and wriggling out the truth - honesty via dishonesty. It usually works, as Joey's reaction to the stunt was overly dramatic and far too incensed to be just about irritation... hidden feelings surfacing?
When Joey found out about that Gretchen knew, I felt sorry for her... all her illusions of keeping the lie intact appeared to be fading quickly as she came to realise that, as Gretchen would say to her later, these things have a habit of coming out. It does pain me to see each of these characters suffer - but even more so Joey, who keeps getting herself into these impossible situations because of her emotional issues.
Moving onto Dawson and Gretchen for a second, I found that their relationship had the one thing which Gretchen had so stressed about - honesty. Perhaps it's because of Gretchen age and maturity, having experienced first hand how lies can ruin relationships, she knows the key to
success. This is in direct contrast with Pacey and Joey - they have everything together, the love, the sex life, the fun... but they don't have that which lasts, honesty. Perhaps one day once Joey has grown up, she too will realise this key.
As Dawson and Gretchen talked about their sex lives, I couldn't help but smile. They were so open and heart-felt with each other, it was good to see that for a change. Dawson admitting that he never had sex before was endearing, as was the way Gretchen reacted, understanding and never condescending.
Dawson has most likely always imagined his first time being with Joey, as she has with him. Thus, when you get the feeling that the oppourtunity is there, especially something that you've held dear to your heart for so long - it's hard to let go. I'd like to think that was the reason Dawson was so uncomfortable about the idea of sex with Gretchen, that perhaps he should
still be waiting all this time.
Naturally, Gretchen was quite upset by the idea that she perhaps wasn't getting his full attention and dedication. Not to mention the immense irritation at the fact that Joey, perhaps directly, was causing problems with her own relationship. I fully understood why she got out of there so quickly - she's such an honest person and if Dawson had inquired further, she may have given in and told him about Joey's lie. Perhaps another reason she didn't tell him, and continued not to tell him, was that she was afraid of his reaction - whether he'd retreat away from her in shock.
Dawson knows that Joey had sex with Pacey. He's perhaps suspected it since the night he asked the question, due to Joey's ambiguous response and the way he "knows" her. This was confirmed as he visited Pacey's house that morning and perhaps saw something lying around or generally got a feeling of unease by Pacey - especially considering the fact that Gretchen was at Doug's house and not Paceys, a sure sign that something was up. Dawson is a fairly perceptive guy you know. The comment, "I finally see the light" nailed the coffin as far as I'm concerned - but also with Dawson and his statement to Gretchen earlier, about wanting to let Joey go. Oh God I love this show, never in my life have I seen such contrived drama played out in such a compelling way.
This idea, that Dawson knew, was further signalled when he had invited Joey to the classroom later on, where he apologized for asking her the question, and thus forcing her to ask some serious questions about herself as well. He seemed to subtly indicate that he wished her and Pacey all the best with the entire "couple of the year" thing. However, the wonderful make-up scene between Dawson and Gretchen later on seemed to indicate even more troubled waters.
Does Gretchen really think shehas a chance of a lasting relationship with Dawson? Is Dawson really over Joey? On this one, I haven't the foggiest. The writers are sending such completely mixed signals that I'm left clutching at straws as to what is going on. All I know is that it is a definate possibility. The idea that Gre tchen was afraid to tell Dawson about the P/J sex perhaps reinforces that slightly. Let's keep watching to find out :)
The heartbreak on Pacey's face as the honest and truthful Gretchen told him the bad news was very apparent. I most certainly did get the feeling that he thought he was losing her, as he somberly walked with Joey along the beach, trying to fathom where their relationship was heading. He left many oppourtunities for Joey to come clean, but he didn't pounce - perhaps
because he realised that the second they started talking about it, that is the second they break-up. Joey's words to him, about how they talked so much about sex before they had it, and how they still do afterwards rang so true.
Perhaps Joey is regretting the act, I don't know for sure yet. By the way, perhaps it's time the wardrobe department got Joey a new winter jacket? It's getting kind of repetitive, after all, despite the fact Joey is allegedly poor, they never failed to give her designer outfits before.
Along most of this season the Pacey and Joey relationship has copped a lot of flack for the lack of depth, for the lack of meaningful talks between the characters - perhaps the reason that P/J was portrayed without such depth is because the writers didn't want them to eclipse the deep emotional connection that Dawson and Joey still share. That perhaps Joey was still in love with Dawson, all this time? Alas TPTB had screwed it up cause they failed to show properly delineate the deficiencies in their relationship by masking it over well with "cute" scenes, making promises of the future being together. This board is going to be hell in a couple of weeks. And you thought the worst was over :)
Ahh, Jack and Jen! I'm glad that the previous experiment with sex had not damaged their friendship - it was wonderful to see it in full bloom. The question of honesty in their relationship was raised though, as Jen seemed in denial for a long time about why she was so curious about her therapist. It's perhaps a disease going through Capeside, I don't know. Her session with the therapist seemed to indicate a slow development of trust, despite the blatant lies she was spouting at him. I can fully understand why she'd be reluctant to trust him, considering how many people that have scarred her in her life. It's sort of the same as Joey really, except that Jen deals with it in different ways, ways which may appear to be more fun to the viewer, but nevertheless, she suffers just the same. I'm glad she has Jack. Speaking of whom... he seems to have gotten a back seat rather quickly. Whatever happened to Tobey? The great season 4 romance? It's almost a little late isn't it? Sigh. Overall, this episode was a corker IMO. It shot right back to no.1 on my list of favourite shows (The West Wing had deposed it for a while there). The reason being? Nothing, I repeat nothing, makes my heart pound so hard as this show.
SLYN11 hates Kapinos: I hate Tom Kapinos! His interview has totally ruined Dawson's Creek for me. How could he have said that the show was about a couple (Dawson and Joey) who are meant to be? I don't think Kevin Williamson, the creator of the show, saw it that way. I believe he described the show was about a group of friends growing up together.
And he said that he had a "Joey" growing up, but obviously they were not "meant to be" since Kevin Williamson is gay. In that one interview, Kapinos has greatly diminshed and limited the potential growth and depth of the show. If we all know that Dawson and Joey are "supposed" to be together, then we know that all their relationships with other people will not last. Where is the fun in that? It is like he told us the ending of a great movie, or a mystery novel....he spoiled it. I have watched the show since day one. I admit that it has not always been my favorite, and that I have enjoyed seasons 3 and 4 the most. But I have never seen the evidence that Dawson and Joey are soul mates. Best Friends? Definitely. A Couple? Season 2. But the writers have never portrayed them as anything more than best friends, who crossed the line. Joey fell in love with
Dawson. But if you remember season 1, he didn't even notice her "in that way". I don't think that he was even contemplating ever hooking up with her back then.
And after they got together...talk about a mass of confusion. When did they even find the time to truly fall in love? Between the first date and the break-ups...they never had very much relationship time. The only real love they had was that of deep friendship. (which truly is a wonderous thing) Joey herself said in her summer diary that Pacey was the only person whom she could ever truly call her boyfriend.
So my point is that, all this stuff about Joey still being in love with Dawson is just some contrived drivle that the current writers have created to undermine the beautifully portrayed story of Pacey and Joey, and to further their plot to reunite Dawson and Joey.
Tom Kapinos needs to be fired. He can single handedly ruin the future dramatic tension of the show, if he keeps granting interviews like the ones he has been giving. There is no way that Joey would have lied to prevent Dawson from sleeping with Gretchen. She gave Dawson her blessing to move on many episodes ago...and I think she meant it.
>she had recessed into her concsience that Dawson was no longer a factor in her romantic relationships, especially in the way she developed a relationship with Pacey.
I feel like the writers shoud have resolved all this episodes ago. The first
part of the season really focused on the three of them healing. Why are TPTB
reopening the wound? It just proves to me that there is no integrity on this writing team. They have made is so clear that Joey loves Pacey...she has never ever been this intense about Dawson.
>Shoot that idea to pieces as Drue's little ploy striked deep. He certainly has a unique ability of playing with our gang and wriggling out the truth
Drue is TPTB's evil pawn. He is the one they put on the show to do their dirty work. He makes these grand statements about phony relationships, hidden feelings, and messed upp syches ...but he doesn't even know these people. He has no clue about Dawson and Joey - and they definitely have not been showing any signs of attraction or even romantic interest this season. So where is Drue getting his insight from? The writers - They make him say things to push their
plotlines along. So instead of having to write emotionally intense scenes where hidden feelings can be revealed...they use Drue as a catalyst. That is pretty cheesy writing. Why can't they give Drue an interesting storyline and keep his dialogue based on information that he could possibly know. Drue has no clue about the Dawson/Joey dyanmic...the only character who could truly make those kind of comments is Pacey - since he has been close to them all his life.
Mal P responds: I'm not going to argue your points there because I'm all argued out today
lol... but I do think they are soulmates. If it's any conselation, Katie Holmes agrees with you and said this at www.dawsonscreek.com in the meet the press section:
"Interviewer: Do you think that Dawson and Joey are soulmates?
Katie:Uhhhh I think Dawson and Joey are two kids who grew up, obviously,
next door to each other and probably know each other so well that they
probably are making the assumption that they are soulmates and have a lot of
life to live before they actually meet their soulmates but I think that what
they have is something that's so sweet and so innocent and so untouchable, a
wonderful bond that is special in it's own way but I don't think that they
are two soulmates. Is that wrong?"
