You Had Me At Goodbye:
Written by: Zack Estrin & Chris Levinson
Directed by: John Behring
Original airdate: November 15, 2000
Joey struggles with a college application that asks her to submit an essay from a friend who knows her best, leaving her to try and decide who that person is: Dawson or Pacey. Ultimately after some advice from Gretchen, she goes to Dawson and requests his help. He ponders the idea while she leaves, but eventually lets her know that he doesn’t feel it’s right for him to do so, not anymore, at least. Their interaction is seen by Pacey who gets agitated that he wasn’t considered to be the person who knows her best, despite the logical reasons that Joey asked Dawson in the first place.
At the McPhee household, with her having enough credits to graduate high school early, Andie gets the offer of a lifetime from her father: take the rest of the year off to visit family in Italy and re-learn to enjoy herself before moving onto college, the next difficult step in life. She seeks advice from Jack, thinking he would support her, but the exact opposite appears to be true.
Drue tries again to appeal to Jen who is on the outs with the rest of the gang after Andie’s drug incident, but Jen isn’t having it and rebukes him yet again. Drue gets his revenge however when he goes to the authorities and reveals that it was his and Jen’s influence that led to Andie’s incident. Despite Jen trying to gain support from Grams, the two are sentenced to 100 hours of community service, and Grams leaves hurt and disappointed like never before, refusing to listen to her granddaughter’s defense.
Andie attempts to get Jen talking with Jack by sending her an email from his account, but the meeting does not go well, leaving Andie even more despondent about leaving her friends behind in this troublesome time. She seeks Pacey’s advice who offers to her that this might be the best time to go, reasoning that it isn’t running away but rather learning how to stand on her own.
As Dawson continues his painting for Mr. Brooks, the old man calls him inside for his lunch break with Dawson noticing the many pictures Brooks has on his walls. After Brooks casually insults him again, Dawson starts to retreat outside, but Brooks calls him on running away, leading Dawson to question Brooks about the people in the photos. Brooks explains he invested in his brothers once, and despite his misgivings about doing so, he went through with it and lost a great deal of money, explaining that sometimes you don’t lose people in your life by choice, but rather when you make the wrong choices.
Dawson, Joey, Pacey, Jen and Jack all show up at Leery’s Fresh Fish for dinner with Andie, not realizing that she made plans with each of them separately so that they could all be there together as a group. Andie reveals to them that she is leaving Capeside and gives them a speech about how much they have all helped her in various ways and how she can’t leave knowing that they are all at odds. Her words work wonders and Jack and Jen come back together as friends, Pacey apologizes for his words earlier to Joey and Joey explains that while Dawson knows her past, her future lies with Pacey. Dawson tells Joey he would be glad to write the recommendation for her after all, explaining he was just scared of what would happen if he had to put down on paper how well he knew Joey. Andie thanks Pacey for giving her strength but Pacey tells Andie that she is brave and stalwart enough on her own and that they will all miss Andie’s optimism. They head back inside for a picture together, as Andie quickly shifts her position in the picture leaving Pacey with his arms around Joey and Dawson, and Jack with his arms around Andie and Jen, as the camera timer goes off, the memory frozen for all time.
The officer was played by Michael Harding, a character actor who recently appeared as Captain William Shore in an episode of a mini series called The Good Lord Bird (Ethan Hawke stars as abolitionist John Brown in this series about a fictional enslaved boy who becomes a member of Brown's family of abolitionist soldiers and finds himself in the 1859 raid at Harpers Ferry). Before that he was in The Devil All the Time (Sinister characters converge around a young man devoted to protecting those he loves in a postwar backwoods town teeming with corruption and brutality. Also stars Tom Holland, Bill Skarsgard, Sebastian Stan and Robert Pattinson). He has a list 82 credits, all in minor roles, starting in 1993 with Super Mario Bros where he played a Goomba.
Tammy Arnold played the office assistant and has 40-some credits to her name, all as a character actor. An interesting note of trivia about her, however, is that she has an acting studio in Wilmington and works as a dialect coach.
Peer Recommendation is an ACTUAL thing at Williams College, but not a requirement.
Zack Estrin got his start on Dawson’s Creek. He’s a working writer and producer for TV. He is mentioned as a student in the next episode when Dawson, Pacey and Jack are called to the office.
The Unusual Suspects:
Written by: Jon Kasdan
Directed by: James Whitmore Jr.
Original airdate: November 22, 2000
Dawson, Pacey, Jack, and a number of other students are called to the Principal’s office in order to explain their whereabouts during the previous day, all due to the fact that someone stole the new principal’s boat and dog and set them up in the school swimming pool. Assisted by Mitch, Principal Peskin questions the boys about their alibis.
Dawson’s alibi is that he was at Mr. Brooks’ house, except that when Dawson arrived there, he decided that he had worked off his debt already, and when asked by the man to do more work, Dawson demanded to now be paid. When Brooks balks, Dawson starts to leave but is called back, being offered what he’s worth. Which according to Brooks is “very little.” As Dawson goes through Brooks’ study and begins organizing his papers, he discovers that the crotchety old man was once an aspiring film director. Soon enough, Gretchen shows up to give Dawson a ride home since Gail was stuck at the restaurant. Upon arriving home, he sees Drue waiting for him, returning Mitch’s keys, which Dawson had mistakenly left in Drue’s car the night before when he had given him a ride home from the theater where they bumped into each other. Later in the afternoon Dawson returns to Mr. Brooks’ house to do more cleaning, but the old man tells him he’s late and tells him to leave, but Dawson stands up to him first and tells him that he hopes he never ends up alone like him and storms off. Dawson returns however and confronts the old man, telling him that he found his old yearbook and saw that he once wanted to be filmmaker like Dawson himself, and how that scare him because Dawson has no desire to end up a bitter and alone man like Brooks, promising to stay with Brooks until the job is done, despite Brooks seemingly wanting nothing to do with him. Later at the restaurant, Gretchen gives Dawson the idea to try searching for filmmakers named Brooks, but trying a different first name, thinking that the man didn’t use his real name, resulting in Dawson finding a slew of films the old man made back in the 50’s. Mitch brings up the idea of a senior prank that Dawson and Pacey were talking about in 9th grade when they were best friends, but Dawson dismisses the idea saying that they really aren’t that close now, and that Pacey has made so much academic progress, there is no way he would jeopardize it just for a prank.
When Pacey is questioned, he reveals that he was actually on a ride along with his brother Doug, something Doug had been trying to arrange for some time, ever since Pacey’s aptitude test that suggested he might do well in law enforcement. Pacey quickly gets disillusioned as he and Doug start the day by eating donuts, and then sit by the side of the road trying to catch speeders. Doug tries to put an exciting spin on his routine so far but Pacey isn’t having it as he questions his brother whether his life turned out the way he had hoped, slightly hurting Doug’s ego. Later, Doug goes to investigate an apparent dog-napping and Pacey tries to again take the spring out of Doug’s steps, his brother calls him out and tells him to stop judging before he resorts to physical violence. Later, Pacey sits in the back of the squad car as Doug helps a man into the car with some groceries. Pacey wonders what is going on but once Doug drops the man off at home, the young lad sees that the man was blind, and that Doug was helping him get through a part of his day, leaving Pacey feeling guilty about his earlier comments. Later that evening, Doug and Pacey head to the boat yard having received a call about a stolen boat and with Pacey’s code, get inside and find Drue who had shown up after his mother received a call about the same stolen boat. Drue blows off Doug’s suggestion that he stole the boat and Pacey asks Drue for a ride, showing his annoyance at still being on the ride along, to which Drue obliges.
Jack’s alibi is that he was actually coaching all day, with Jen working off her community service as his assistant, and trying to convince Molly to be the goalie now that they have lost several team members due to the rumors about Jack’s sexuality going around. She eventually agrees to it after Jack explains that she just needs to prove herself to the boys on the team. Jen sets up the soccer nets while Jack leaves to meet Drue at the hardware store to pick up supplies for a p roject they’re supposed to work on together. While Jack gets some soccer supplies as well, Drue gets the paint they need for the project and pays. Back at the field, several parents show up and tell Jack that if he allows Molly to be the goalie, they’re going to lose and thus, fire Jack as coach. Jack decides to put her in anyway and the team actually wins the game. The parents show up again and explain that even though they won, any goals that were scored against them, will count in the play offs if they tie at the next game, meaning they actually could lose the season, leading them to tell Jack he’s fired. Later that evening, Caroline takes Molly to see Jack as she cries to him that she feels responsible for getting him fired, but Jack reassures her that it’s not her fault, and that they didn’t fire him because of her but because they didn’t like HIM as a person. He tells her that the best thing to do is to forget them, and keep living life as a good person.
With their airtight alibis, Mitch and Peskin come up with the only possible suspect who was present in all the right locations to actually pull off the boat prank, Drue Valentine. Ms Valentine reprimands her son after hearing their evidence and accepts her son’s suspension. On his way out of the school, he tells Joey to tell the boys “touche,” realizing that he was set up. Joey goes to Dawson’s and enters his room to see that Jack and Pacey are there, tossing some things into a garbage bag. The boys proceed to tell her how they would have pulled off the setup and prank, IF they had actually planned the prank, and they’re just glad that karma finally caught up with Drue. Later that evening, Pacey and Dawson literally bury the evidence of their part in the prank, while Pacey asks if it’s possible they will ever be able to have the trust they once had, leaving Dawson hopeful that it will happen someday.
Jonathan Kasdan has only 6 credits as a writer, one of which is Solo: A Star Wars Story. He also has 12 acting credits, including Dawson’s Creek season 5 where he plays Gawkey-Looking Kid, and a run of 9 episodes of Californiacation where he played Director.
Harry Shearer plays Principal Peskin but most probably know him as Principal Skinner, Kent Brockman, Mr. Burns, Smithers and Ned Flanders from the Simpsons. He’s had a long career over the years (195 credits), not just doing voice work for cartoons (The Simpsons) and video games, but in such films as This Is Spinal Tap and A Mighty Wind. His characters from both of those movies have made other appearances in comedy skit shows, talk shows, and late nite shows as well. We have HEARD him before in the Sliders Pilot episode on the radio. In the 70’s and 80’s he also worked as an announcer on Saturday Night Live, has appearances in sitcoms like Laverne and Shirley, the Golden Girls, Alf, and Murphy Brown, amongst many others. He made his debut appearance in film back in 1953 at ten years old in Abbott and Costello Go To Mars. Shearer recently stepped down from his role as Dr. Hibbert on The Simpsons to allow Kevin Michael Richardson take over.
David Andrews played Gus Weiner. He was in Terminator 3 as Robert Brewster, From The Earth To The Moon as Frank Borman, and Apollo 13 as Pete Conrad. Lately he has made appearances in the TV show Queen of the South (woman flees Mexico after her drug-runner boyfriend is murdered, settles in Dallas attempts to become the country's reigning drug smuggler and to avenge her lover's murder). He was a minor character in the Don Bellisario show, Jag, in the later seasons but he’s appeared in other series as well, including Shooter, Justified, The Boys, Watchmen, House of Cards, and Necessary Roughness (the series) to name a few. He was a main cast member in The Whispers (unseen force manipulating children into helping it) and 12 Miles of Bad Road (comedy about the matriarch of a wealthy Texas family and their powerful real estate business). He headlined a short lived series called The Monroes (a Kennedy-type family political show), Pulaski: The TV Detective (TV detective is brave and honest on screen, but the opposite off screen, and he begins to have trouble determining fiction from reality), a series called Mann & Machine (wise cracking cop teamed up with a by-the-book robot), and The Antagonists (wacky defense attorney versus a by-the-book prosecutor).
The Away Goal Rule is an actual thing but has since been discontinued and was really only a professional soccer rule.
boun...@my-deja.com talks about I WIll Remember You: Did anyone else start to bawl when they started to play this song? And I felt that there was this double meaning... with M.M. leaving and David Duke passing on...
Daria agrees: Thank you for telling me I wasn't alone... As soon as I heard the first note I
thought 'Oh no,' and then the tears hit.
Gigi5423 is with them: My god I was hysterically bawling my eyes out during this song....but ti all
started when Jen and Jack were like "I'm going...no I am ...blah" and then Andie was like NO I AM! ...that brought a tear to my eye...and the speech KILLED ME! But the song and when Jack and Jen made up made me BAWL! This show makes me bry more than I have ever for a tv show (lol) but this one was a doozie!
Sweetie143823 too: I was crying like a baby. I bawled throughout most of it as well. But as much as I am sad that Andie left, I think there was more happiness in this episode than in any other one. For one time, we were left at the end with everyone getting along and everyone happy. It was very refreshing. I like drama as much as the next person, but I was really starting to get tired of all the fighting and heartache. For once, I just wanted to see everyone happy. And I finally got to! For once, I am not biting my nails in anticipation of next week's episode, hoping that this or that will happen. Because right now, everything is the way it should be!
Chele615 agrees: I didn't start really crying until after the show was over and they showed the
"in memory of David Dukes" screen. I lost it right there. I was so impressed with last night's episode. It was so emotional....i was teary eyed throughout the whole show.
Makara is feeling it: When Pacey put his arm around Dawson!! : (
Brat17a says: I am so sad that Andie left, I don't want her to leave I don't care if she didn't have any good storylines, she was one of my favorites. I can relate to her sometimes and for her to have left the show whether it was her decision of the producers was wrong. Now I have to wait until one of the last episodes of this season or of the show for her come back. Is she going to be in the credits or they taken and redesigning the credits starting next week. Let me know what everyone else's feelings were of tonight's episode. I feel like watching that episode again, everything had that season 1 appeal in it tonight. This episode will be marked as one of my favorites since season 1. Thanks again, but still upset at whoever let Merideth Monroe leave the show for whatever reason.
Cindy Morgan reviews the episode: Time to go buy some more kleenex? I expected to shed some tears tonight, but the producers did a pretty darn good job making me shed the whole
Mississippi! This show tonight was very... well it really hit home. You know that feeling you get when you are so sad that your heart actually feels like it might stop? (Reminder, I'm only saying these things, well because this is a Dawsons Creek newsgroup. I can only assume you read these posts because you love the show just like me!) Andie has never had a huge impact on my watching of DC, but after tonight, I see just how perfect she was in this show. She did what she always does and pulls everyone together. Her speech at the restaurant was so heartfelt and I give full kudos to Meredith Monroe and all the actors around that table for making that part of the show so real and believable. I can only hope from what Andie told everyone that things will return to a semi normal state of pre-summer boat ride. Maybe Andie threw some sense at these guys and they realize that friends are friends forever, no matter what. *No matter what*. As for the rest of the show, it was fine. The whole Drew/Jen thing was a bit sad. I honestly felt for Jen tonight in that office in front of Grams. Yes, she was a bad girl previously, but like she says, she isn't that person anymore. What suprised me the most, or dare I even say disappointed, is how
Grams acted. Grams, of all people should've known that Jen is alright and things were not as they appeared. As for Drew, he needs to take a hike. Can you imagine the struggle Joey had to go through to find "the person who knows you best?" It took much courage to ask Dawson to write the recommendation. And she handled Pacey well tonight during the whole show. I was proud of Joey. And darn it if I didn't mist up when she was talking about how Dawson knows her the best. All's I know, is if anyone ever threw that question to me... I would have a difficult task ahead, trying to figure out who would know me best. Overall I give the show a "Job Well Done". The producers threw that dinner scene in there and it totally got me. I really didn't expect such a thing. I'm glad they did it though. Maybe now, things might sway to being "right" in Capeside.
Cindy (I know this is long, but what do you expect? hehe, I'm a woman and I've just watched a program that put the "emotions in motion".. )
Digerati01 replies: I really enjoyed tonights show as well. I know that alot of people on this group are wondering if this might be the final season for DC, well if it is or not, tonight's episode would have almost made a perfect series finale for the show (barring the drew business et al). It certainly seems like the writers have been laying down some heavy hints on a possible ending to the series. It may all be a bunch of red herrings but there has been a strong emphasis on the possible finality of the gang's time together and a real chance that they will go their own ways. It will be interesting to see what all comes of this. I must admit that I am somewhat sad to see Andie go. I was never a fan of them adding Andie and Jack (mostly jack) to the cast, but over time she won me over some. I especially loved her bantering with pacey before they started going out. I really think that she and Pacey made and much better couple than pacey and
joey do. Pacey gave Andie a strong stable foundation and Andie actually made Pacey a better person (and student!). She was able to improve Pacey and his life far more than Joey has been able too. All Joey and Pacey do is bicker and then sit around and do nothing. I really don't see alot of significant growth. With Andie, Pacey did grow. He took on responsibility for his life and for being their for her through her troubles. He became a better person, and once they broke home he fell right back down. I'll miss her, especially after seeing her in the bikini this season :-)
The whole Drew situation just pissed me off to no end, combine that with the cold shoulder Jen was getting from the gang and I almost didn't want to watch the show tonight. It was just so unfair. Andie accepted her responsibility, but everyone, especially Jack, seemed unwilling to acknowledge the truth and instead blindly blamed Jen. I know they are all supposed to be young and impetuous teenagers. But for the introspective and overly contemplative teenagers they portray, they should have better realized where the blame really belonged and that what they were doing was not symbolic of true friendship.They were way to q uick to back off.
And Drew, my god! I hate that guy! I can't believe what he did reporting all that business, and I hate him even more because he is an excuse to bring that damn mother of his into the scenes and everything she says drives me nuts! I must admit I was disappointed in how quick Grams, like her friends, where ready to give up on her and believe some new guy with a checkered past over Jen. It just didn't seem realistic.
I think tonight really solidified the apparent fact that Joey and Dawson will never be together again. That really saddens me, but I guess life goes on. One thing tonights episode, and this season in general, has done better than most teenage shows is to show how temporary friendships can be at that age. Things change and people come and go. They may come back again, but nothing is guranteed. It's the truth, and tonight's show made up for some subpar ones that have come around lately. All they need to do now is throw in more Gretchen and Dawson!
xxcalone responds: UGH... Are you kidding or what?!? Joey and Pacey are more perfect together than any other combination in the show. They complement each other. Similar to each other but each lacking elements that the other can fill. Andie was plain strange. She was sweet and bubbly. I'll give that to her. But facades only go so far. She was an emotional wreck. Pacey and Andie were like polar opposites. Dawson and Joey were two peas in a pod. Pacey and Joey totally complement.
mrsMoonGoddess says: Last night's show felt very much like a seaon finale!! I was in tears! I do like Kerr Smith but had never fallen for MM, however, she has won me over in the past two episodes...I'm a little sad to see her go now. Overall, an awesome episode!
A stalker appears. Jessica asks: Hi there Does anybody knows where meredith monroe lives in real live? I'm a really big fan of her and I'm planning to go to the States to visit her, but then I need to know where she lives! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASEPLEASE
IceBlast responds: I think we can call you the first official stalker of this newsgroup....Everyone remember this post, and that I called it, when something bad happens to Meredith Monroe (besides her acting career).....
Boss6Sr replies: For real. There are laws here. I don't know about your "planet" but us
Americans tend to stay away from becoming a stalker.
wds14086 on Grams: She should have told grams she was in trouble. Gram's was dissapointed cause she saw improvement in Jenn. From personal experence. I've disapointed family
and they still love you :).
Ryan3178 replies: True, but when you look at Jen's family, their a complete mess
ljw (Ry) says: Ok, I have to admit I've been a big Pacey and Joey fan but the more I see her and Dawson together the more I want them back together.
SLYN11 says: I want to see them as good friends again - sparring about life's issues and
movies. That is the one aspect that I miss about DC of old.
Mal P replies: Look at Joey's behaviour towards Dawson... I'm sitting here shaking my head
at the revelation a wonderful poster at FanForum brought me, I have never, ever considered this aspect. Now I see why Joey has been so cold to Dawson... she feels as though she will be hurt by how much Dawson has changed if she allows herself to become too close to him. She has always thought he'd be there for her, same old unwavering Dawson... and the idea he may not, terrifies her, and also explains a lot of her indecisiveness last season.
I honestly feel that Dawson and Joey are better off as friends. What they have, is a bond that transcends mere mortality... despite the circumstances, despite whatever romance they are involved in, in the back of their minds will be each other, willing them to go on with life, persue it to the nth degree. They don't have to "hang out", they don't even have to talk, all they need is to know that somewhere out there, a Dawson or a Joey is waiting for them. I feel the same way about Pacey and Dawson. What I would like to see? The season 1 friendship. I really, really miss movie night, and the intense, deep conversations they had discussing life as it relates to film. I miss the way they argued and laughed and cried... and I hate how romance ruined it.
av…@my-deja.com says: It would be nice if Dawson and Joey would get back together and in tv land its possible but I suppose everyone would settle if the good old friendship would reappear
Cindy Morgan responds: Well, by the looks of things.. Dawson is going out of his way to never
having Joey back. Look at the end of tonight's episode when they were on the dock together talking about the future. Joey says "It's pretty hard to imagine living life without you." and Dawson says "You did that pretty well for 3 months." (Along those lines, anyhow.) Well geez! What a nice thing to say after such a heartfelt realization on Joey's part. That just pissed me
off a bit. I suppose though, the writers gotta do what they gotta do..
AngeInBvff says: i agree with the last part of the way things used to be the way Joey pined for
her best friend Dawson that i miss :) and i especially liked when gretchen said you know what i think if dawson is waiting around for some old crush to come again hes not waiting on me. KristiLea87 replies: i would like to see Joey and Dawson as freinds, but the more they are together the more likely the writers will have the friendship develop into romance again. i hope that that does not happen. i like Joey and Pacey together. Pacey is not an ass like Dawson.
Jasper says: your right Pacey is a much bigger ass then dawson.
KristiLea87 replies: Well, I think Pacey is not an ass at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dawson sucks.
Dawn jumps in: I think what you both *meant* was that Pacey has the *better* ass.
KristiLea87 says: true Pacey definetly has the better ass!!!!!!
marci agrees: Oh man, and do I agree with *this* post!!!
Daniel S wonders: Just wondering if anyone knew if Dawsons Creek will come on DVD.
Prefrebly region 4 since i'm in Australia
Mcp…@vanderbeek.net hopes for too much: They should do a proper job of a DVD conversion. Outtakes, High Quality and in Widescreen ratio in Dolby Digital - Like its supposed to be!! Image those awsome songs and beautiful locations in crisp digital quality. *drool* Hope they don’t mess it up like they did with the friends DVDs. The picture quality was as good as VHS if not worse and the sound was not digital either. The picture format was a 4:3 instead of 16:9 widescreen. Also, there were no extras and they could have got more episodes per disc as well. I hear the X-Files DVDs are a text book example of how a series should be transfered to the medium.
Mike Harrison asks: How can you expect 16:9 widescreen from a TV show? Even the X-Files Season 1 DVD is fullscreen and not in widescreen.
Mal P replies: Dawsons Creek has been shot in Widescreen, using Super 16, with an aspect ratio of 1.66 to 1 since the show began. It is cropped to 1.78 to 1 when transferred to DVD. The X-Files began filming in 1992, and back them, they used plain full-screen video, not Widescreen film. These days however, the X-Files is also shot with a Widescreen lens.
Cappie (Anthony) asks: I have most of the episodes now, but they are all about 3rd generation copies which kinda sucks, but it is better than nothing. Who could we all write to about getting a DVD released? I tried to find Granville Productions on the web (on of the 3 production companies) but couldn't find anything. I thought I would ahve more luck asking details from the small guys than the big ones. If anyone knows who I could harass or enquire as to why not please let me know. We can get a campaign going or something.
Neal Hyde responds: I have the majority of the episodes... and I have been trying to figure out VCD. Would you like to go at this together? Most of mine are good quality.. some better than others.
Geret!!! Has a theory: Hmmm... I have the funny feeling that the old cranky man is going to die. Since Dawson is his only "friend" or whatever, he'll leave all of his things to Dawson. Then Dawson will take that money and use it to fulfill his (and Mr. Brooks') dream, and leave the creek to become a Hollywood director or whatever. Maybe? Any thoughts?????
Buppie likes the idea: That is not only the best, but also the prediction that could actually turn
out to be reality! I was thinking something should happen between the two, since they have the same dream. Maybe Mr. Brooks will tutor Dawson, and make him realize his longtime dreams can happen! Good thinking!
raven rambles about the show in general: Well, I've been a lurker here for some time and I've posted items off and on, but after watching last night's episode I was compelled to write these ramblings.
I've been trying to figure out why the show just isn't as good as the first season, and I ultimately blame Kevin Williamson's leaving as the main reason. The show just lost all direction after he left. The producer's and the writers have let this show go astray. Writing themselves into corners they never quite have recovered from. The most disappointing thing was the total breakdown of Dawson and Joey's relationship and friendship. It's why I enjoyed the show. And I know I'm in the small minority here, because many of you are Pacey and Joey lovers. But I've just never liked them together. The writer's have made Pacey such a great guy, and dismissed Dawson's character all together, making him well, the Dawson we've been made to watch.
But what really bugs me is the fact that it's not really Dawson's Creek, and hasn't been for some time. If you're going to name a show after a character, the show should revolve around that character. Dawson just seems like this supporting character with lame storylines. For example, I watch Felicity, where the producers have never totally lost control of the show. Yes, last year was bumpy, but they're back on track this season. The way better writers on this show, know the show is about Felicity, and write around her character, without letting the supporting cast overshadow her storylines. The supporting cast does just that, they support her character, and are still able to maintain there own storylines as well. And I can't stress enough how the writers were able to recover from Felicity choosing Ben over Noel. Everyone got over it, and they're better friends now. Unlike at the Creek.
The entire structure is gone from the show. Supporting character's are written better and given more screen time. No wonder there's a huge backlash against Dawson's character. And sadly, I don't see it changing. The whole love triangle was dealt with so wrong, I doubt they can write their way out of it. Even if Dawson and Joey were to get back together, it wouldn't be the same. Pacey has been made to be Joey's great love. The guy that understands her most. Everything from the first season was thrown out Dawson's window. If Joey goes back to Dawson, it just makes her character look pitiful. There's no out for Joey to back out of her relationship with Pacey. Pacey just can't do no wrong. If they had kept Andie, maybe there could have been a way. Because Pacey truly loved Andie, and that might have been a way out. But Pacey would have to mess up in order for the audience to accept Joey leaving. Anyway, these are just ramblings. From one of the people that liked Joey with Dawson. My how I miss seeing there friendship.
sara is with her: I totally agree. This isn't the same show at all as the show I got hooked on in season one. Bit by bit over the past two years it's totally lost the feel and direction it had. I hate what they've done with Dawson's character. Do the writers really hate him or do they hate JVDB and want to give him lousy
storylines. I mean even in the fact of Joey falling for Pacey, they could have at least made Dawson slightly sympathetic. I like or rather liked Dawson, but even I couldn't really like him last season and this one.
Felicity is a great example. Yes, it did have some weak episodes last year, and the stories didn't quite work and it lost its spark from season one, but the producers promised to right their wrongs and they amazingly were true to their word. They've handled the love triangle with Felicity, Ben and Noel beautifully. The first season cliffhanger was great, but in the second season they realized breaking up Felicity and Ben so soon and lingering on the triangle were not working and just went with Felicity and Ben and it was beautifully written, romantic and funny, and everything a tv romance should be.
Felicity does have better writers, and maybe the other difference is its creators have stuck very closely with the show and are involved in plotting each story. They map the direction, so the show hasn't lost its original feel and meaning. The creators, J.J. Abrams and Matt Reeves, could probably easily have ditched the show and moved ontofilm or other tv projects. Both have done feature films before. Abrams wrote Armageddon, Regarding Henry. Reeves wrote The Yards. They did The Pallbearer together. But they've stuck with the show even when it was stumbling. They seem to honestly love the show and its characters and want to guide them throught until the show's end. Kevin Williamson seems like he got a little too big for his britches. Too much success and flavor of the month attention. So he leaves a great little show he created and lets other people ruin it, and what does he do? Goes on to make a string of loser projects. I don't know how he can stand to see the show as it is now. He still makes money off of it. Is he too proud to return? Does he really not care? I don't even know if putting Joey and Dawson back together again would help. It just seems like it'd be too little too late. These are not the characters I enjoyed watching in season one. Where's the naive and sometimes self-centred, but still likeable Dawson? Where's the sarcastic, strong-minded Joey? She's just this wishy washy girl now who's life revolves around which guy she's hooking up with or dumping next. Where's the smart-ass Pacey? He's like a saint or something now. Jack, Jen and the rest are so useless now. And what's with the stupid storyline of Dawson's mom being pregnant? This is really and truly that the show is beyond saving. They're adding a baby story. That's like what every super lame sitcom in history has done when the plots are lagging and the show's getting old and rickety. Maybe they should just cancel Dawson's Creek after this season and call it a day.
Mal P responds in detail: Heya Raven, I'd like to disagree with many of your valid points if you don't mind.
> I've been trying to figure out why the show just isn't as good as the first season, and I ultimately blame Kevin Williamson's leaving as the main reason. The show just lost all direction after he left.
Many would say the show lost direction in season 2, while Kevin was still in charge. The entire Dawson and Joey break-up/make-up/break-up cycle got extremely tedious, and many of the storylines were contrived and Uninteresting. Granted, season 3 started off blindingly painful, mainly due to a creative director that did not like the show, but for the latter 2/3 of the season, it increased exponentially in quality.
> The most disappointing thing was the total breakdown of Dawson and Joey's relationship and friendship. It's why I enjoyed the show.
And herin lies your dissapointment, and indeed bias, towards this show. But that's ok, it's fair enough, you have a couple preference and thus the enjoyment you gain from the show is dependanty solely on which couple is currently attached - you have every right to watch the show for whatever reason. I vehemently disagree with that notion though. Basing ones enjoyment of a show simply on a couple is plain ridiculous... on a show like Dawsons Creek, couples are as fickle as todays pop music. You'll end of being hurt. What you should be doing, is concentrating on the friendships on the show, and how they're tested as the characters grow up. It's the entire premise for the show, not relationships.
> The writer's have made Pacey such a great guy, and dismissed Dawson's character all together, making him well, the Dawson we've been made to watch.
Oh bollocks. Have you actually been watching season 4? In case you failed to notice, Dawson has redeemed his actions over the last season hundred fold.
His heartbreak, and loss of innocence thanks to the betrayal by his best friend and love of his life, has made him a mature, confident and poised young man, someone I greatly admire. In retrospect, Pacey has become mopey, and extremely distant due to his rabid insecurities. And thus, the "tables have been turned".
> But what really bugs me is the fact that it's not really Dawson's Creek, and hasn't been for some time. If you're going to name a show after a character, the show should revolve around that character.
No. Like James VDB *himself* admitted in an interview, Dawsons Creek is based on an ensemble cast. While Dawson provides a connecting element between the characters, he is most certainly not the sole purpose of this show.
> For example, I watch Felicity, where the producers have never totally lost control of the show. Yes, last year was bumpy, but they're back on track this season.
I don't watch Felicity, so I can't offer an opinion. Let me guess, the "right" couple are together? <rolls eyes>
> Supporting character's are written better and given more screen time.
> No wonder there's a huge backlash against Dawson's character.
> And sadly, I don't see it changing.
It has changed. Watch season 4.
> Even if Dawson and Joey were to get back together
A concept I have no trouble with if done correctly... i.e. if they both go their seperate ways and eventually find their way back to each other.
> Pacey has been made to be Joey's great love. The guy that understands her most.
Did you watch season 4, and indeed last weeks episode? Notice how Joey asked Dawson to write a college essay for her on the person who knows her the best? And he did write it? Hmm.
> If Joey goes back to Dawson, it just makes her character look pitiful.
Nope. If Joey's goes back to Dawson, it will be because they love each other again. And that is never pitiful.
> There's no out for Joey to back out of her relationship with Pacey. Pacey just can't do no wrong.
Riiight. Did you notice how Pacey has been acting like a jealous, insecure toad lately? How he overreacts all the time and is generally moody? As opposed to the wonderfuly charismatic Dawson?
> Anyway, these are just ramblings. From one of the people that liked Joey with Dawson. My how I miss seeing there friendship.
I loved Joey with Dawson, just like I'll love them again if done right. But that doesn't mean my enjoyment of the show is derived solely from this ridiculous "soulmate" crap. I enjoy the show for it's friendships, and it's just plain fun. I wish you would too. Please note I was attacking your opinions, not you. I always enjoy arguing with an eloquent poster such as yourself.
pozib…@aol.com also had some rebuttals: I agree that they made Pacey such a great guy, but that started from the first season, so I don't think the loss of Williamson can be blamed In Season 1, the central character was Dawson , his feelings for Jen, Joey's feelling for him & his freindship with Pacey. His character was the focal point. That does not mean he has to remain the central character
Many shows become diluted after the first season as they introduce more characters to expand the possible plot choices. Remeber that when shows start they are basically pilot series sho have
a limited number of episode to try & gain viewing figures, they do this by concentrating on fewer characters.
My personal opinion is that P&J were supposed to get together earlier, since the first season had a few freindship/bonding scenes between the couple, these totally dissappeared in season two, coinsiding with Josh & katei splitting (remember Williamson and Holmes are very good & close, feinds) I think Season 4, so far has done a good job of implying that Dawson still knows Joey best, I think that that was the point in Season Three Joey's character was challanged by Pacey's, to try different things (grow)
Personnally I would like to see the freindships return, I always felt that Dawson & Joey's relationship was more of a brother/sister type, rather than romantic, I have, & will always prefer the Pacey Joey banter dynamic. I also think that we have to accept that this is a 'soap' & that means that anything that occurs in one episode can be totally ignored in later episodes, unless specifically referenced.
Michelle Sentner adds: The 2 things i think that have ruined the season for me is. The whole Dawson's mom is pregnant thing. It does seem like a last ditch attempt to save the show. The other thing is seems every series has done is they make a character say a cheesy speech that just fixes everything. The speech andie made was just so lame.(i know it was her big i'm leaving the show moment) Then afterwards everyone makes up with the person who they where fighting with & poof almost everything is great in life again. That was just way to much of a stretch for me to believe.
I know these are just parts of season 4 right now. All this season seems to be is everybody hating someone else or whining about stupid things. And dawson being superman by helping everybody & being perfect. Really in the real world if dawson really got as hurt inside as he says he'd never ever talk to Joey or pacey ever again. It takes more then 1 summer to get over being backstabbed by your best friend & love of your life. But hey it's a tv show drowning what else can they do.
Brandon Bartelds responds: I beg to differ...some people accept that they have been betrayed like that...Of course they are upset, and they are less likely to trust them as much, but that doesn't always prevent them from talking. Not to mention being a small place, does he really have that many other people he can turn to, to be friends? That would be why he seems a bit distant talking to them, he doesn't mind not having help in doing work for Mr. WhatsHisName.....He has known them both for such a long time, no matter how bad, it is hard to turn away from them like that.
raven responds to Mal P: > Many would say the show lost direction in season 2, while Kevin was still
in charge. The entire Dawson and Joey break-up/make-up/break-up cycle got extremely tedious, and many of the storylines were contrived and uninteresting.
Actually, Kevin might have still been in charge, but at that point he was still very busy in post production for Teaching Mrs. Tingle. He would just read the scripts and leave notes for the writers and producers, but his involvement wasn't as deep as the first season.
>Basing ones enjoyment of a show simply on a couple is plain ridiculous...on a show like Dawsons Creek, couples are as fickle as todays pop music. You'll end of being hurt. What you should be doing, is concentrating on the friendships on the show, and how they're tested as the characters grow up.
It's the entire premise for the show, not relationships.
I'm not basing my enjoyment of this show on just Dawson and Joey as a couple. The writing was subpar at best, and many of the characters have changed since season one, and not necessarily for the better. Let's talk about the friendships for a moment. First off, Jack and Andie seemed to be separated from the others after a while, Dawson was exiled to deal with his parents, and Jen was usually the only one he would talk to. Then you had Joey and Pacey only interacting with each other. Sure there were episodes
where more than two characters hung out, but I don't remember many of them. The total breakdown of friendships was also a turnoff for me. So it's not about just two characters being together.
> Oh bollocks. Have you actually been watching season 4? In case you failed to notice, Dawson has redeemed his actions over the last season hundred fold. His heartbreak, and loss of innocence thanks to the betrayal by his best friend and love of his life, has made him a mature, confident and poised young man, someone I greatly admire.
Yes, and I see Dawson hanging out with an old man and Pacey's sister. He's still got lame storylines. Granted Wednesday's episode was a vast improvement, and it was because of mutiple character interaction. Dawson's somewhat redeemed himself, but not totally. And I will agree with what you said about Pacey. How sad, that they've reduced his character to that. I liked him better as a sidekick. He was actually the Pacey of old when he was talking to Andie in last week's ep.
> No. Like James VDB *himself* admitted in an interview, Dawsons Creek is based on an ensemble cast. While Dawson provides a connecting element between the characters, he is most certainly not the sole purpose of this show.
That's true in a way, but my frustration lies in the fact that the first season was seen through the eyes of Dawson. It was his life we witnessed. My God, the show was loosely based on Kevin Williamson's life. So if that doesn't speak volumnes I don't know what does.
> I don't watch Felicity, so I can't offer an opinion. Let me guess, the > "right" couple are together? <rolls eyes>
hhhhhhhhhh....I don't care either way. I liked her with Noel too. The show has better writers and handled the love triangle correctly. Nuff said.
> Pacey has been made to be Joey's great love. The guy that understands her most. Did you watch season 4, and indeed last weeks episode? Notice how Joey asked Dawson to write a college essay for her on the person who knows her the best? And he did write it? Hmm.
That's not the point I was making. I have been watching season 4, and I also watched the episode in which Joey said her future was with Pacey. My argument was they made Pacey this great guy for Joey, that it was hard for the viewers not to root for him. Of course, I'm not talking about this season where Pacey's insecure and jealous.
Well noted. Ditto for me. And thanks. Your response was enjoyable to
raven also responds to sara hating what they’ve done to Dawson’s character: From what I hear, it's not a happy set. Which is sad, considering they were basically all unknowns before the show got hot. Ahhhh, the downfall of success and recognition packaged in all those egos. And the more I think about it, I wish TPTB would've paired Pacey and Joey off before they paired her off with Dawson. Because it still gets me that she broke up with Dawson, because she needed to find herself. You are so right about her life revolving around a man. I wish they would've kept her single for much longer than they did.
Mal P gives one last reply to raven: > Actually, Kevin might have still been in charge, but at that point he was > still very busy in post production for Teaching Mrs. Tingle. He would just read the scripts and leave notes for the writers and producers, but his involvement wasn't as deep as the first season.
Yet we don't see the animosity directed at the later 2/3 of season 3, despite the fact that in terms of writing and enjoyment, it absolutely destroyed the last 2/3 of season 2. Of course, a subjective opinion, but as
I said before, a lot of people dislike the present seasons for the *sole* reason that Pacey and Joey got together, and are together.
> I'm not basing my enjoyment of this show on just Dawson and Joey as a couple. The writing was subpar at best, and many of the characters have changed since season one, and not necessarily for the better.
The writing on Dawsons Creek *this* season has been satisfactory. Granted, not a reflection of the "innocence" that season 1 had, but remember, the show is about growing up, and now we're seeing a different stage of it. Secondly, characters don't always change for the better. I wish every single person on this planet, as they become older, become more mature and confident like Dawson has, but alas, it doesn't always happen.
> about the friendships for a moment. First off, Jack and Andie seemed to be separated from the others after a while, Dawson was exiled to deal with his parents, and Jen was usually the only one he would talk to. Then you had Joey and Pacey only interacting with each other. Sure there were episodes where more than two characters hung out, but I don't remember many of them. The total breakdown of friendships was also a turnoff for me. So it's not about just two characters being together. Growing up is a process. You grow apart, you grow close. And you have tension. Fights, anger. Especially when romance is involved.
What we're seeing, is what everyone goes through as they ease out of adolescance. Friendships will be strained, but sometimes, just sometimes, they mend. And that is what I look for in Dawsons Creek, that is the "drama" of it, seeing these friendships repaired. Everyone can't be the best of friends every single day.
> Yes, and I see Dawson hanging out with an old man and Pacey's sister. He's still got lame storylines.
That's just not true. Compare his storylines to Pacey. If you notice, Dawson comes up trumps spectacularly.
> Granted Wednesday's episode was a vast improvement, and it was because of mutiple character interaction.
There see, so what are you complaining about. Friendhips re-developing is a
gradual process, you can't just turn it on. As Dawson said, it's not that
> Dawson's somewhat redeemed himself, but not totally.
He needs redemption? Could have fooled me. He's been nothing but the poster boy for class, dignity and maturity this season. He has nothing to redeem himself for.
> And I will agree with what you said about Pacey. How sad, that they've reduced his character to that. I
> liked him better as a sidekick. He was actually the Pacey of old when he was talking to Andie in last week's ep.
And therein lies your bias. You dislike Pacey for what he did to Dawson, fair enough. I thought his actions were despicable too. But could you not understand where he was coming from? Secondly, as I stated, one of the major character arcs for Pacey this season will be him dealing with his insecurities. Take note of the conversation with Doug in the car. He was paralleling his own existence, not Dougs. Character development raven, that's what it's all about. And sidekick? Why? You don't live in the shadows of someone else forever. At least I hope not.
> That's true in a way, but my frustration lies in the fact that the first season was seen through the eyes of Dawson. It was his life we witnessed. My God, the show was loosely based on Kevin Williamson's life. So if that doesn't speak volumnes I don't know what does.
So? A show that does not grow out of it's original premise, dies. Look at the X-Files, a show that failed to develop it's characters or extend itself to new ideas. And it is as stagnant as every other Sci-Fi rip-off.
> Uhhhhhhhhhh....I don't care either way. I liked her with Noel too. The show has better writers and handled the love triangle correctly. Nuff said.
Right. Yet you care about Dawson not being with Joey. I find that difficult to... comprehend? You see, it all goes back to the fact that you would rather see Joey with Dawson. And that's ok. We all have our references. Well, I personally don't give a toss who ends up with whom as long as we see friendships develop with drama. Just don't use couple preferences to criticize a show for it's "quality", just because you don't like what happens in it.
> That's not the point I was making. I have been watching season 4, and I also watched the episode in which Joey said her future was with Pacey. My argument was they made Pacey this great guy for Joey, that it was hard for the viewers not to root for him. Of course, I'm not talking about this season where Pacey's insecure and jealous.
So why are you talking about it then? We're in the now, not then. You should be talking about events of this season, not what happened last year. This is what counts.
Cindy Morgan posts an email from Dawson’s Desktop:
I stayed up late last night to develop the picture of all six of us. It's weird. it was always you and me and me and Pacey and in a way, you, me, and Pacey.
Then came Jen. Then Andie and Jack. It didn't seem like something was missing before they all came to Capeside, but now that Andie's leaving there seems to be a, what would you call it?. grand canyon size hole left behind. It just won't be the same without Andie here.
She really made me realize how important you all are to me. Jen. Jack. Andie. Especially you. And Pacey. Pacey's been my best friend for what seems like forever and that's one friendship I've sorely been missing this year. Sometimes it takes more energy to stay angry, you know?
I'm glad you asked me to write your recommendation. I'm still debating what to write about. even for the guy who knows you best, Joey Potter continues to be a bit of a mystery.
I'm glad you're in my life, Jo.